Bf109 F4 Trop.

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    Alex Kontiveis
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:54 pm

    Yes I've seen that small noisy pic...but i didnt understand if it comes from the Red 4:roll: scratch 
    Anyway, If the real picture shows the seat type clearly, Brian should better ignore the Ersatzteil liste for the seat 3 and go for the seat 2 as you mention on your comment.

    Picture is always a picture. You R lucky that you own those rare pics of the Red 4... bounce

    bcauchi
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  bcauchi on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:14 pm

    That settles the issue of the seat. I will use the type 2 seat since this is the most likely from that small piece of grainy pic which is a small part of a small photo of Red 4. I hope that no more such issues are raised, i hate to backtrack on my work and have to redo stuff, it takes time and besides, the second time is at the expense of neatness. Thanks guys, Marco, i think that you have competition here and you better be careful of what you say, Alex is watching you closely like big brother. I should end up with the most accurate F on earth if i follow your advice.

    skyhigh
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:45 pm

    bcauchi wrote:That settles the issue of the seat. I will use the type 2 seat since this is the most likely from that small piece of grainy pic which is a small part of a small photo of Red 4. I hope that no more such issues are raised, i hate to backtrack on my work and have to redo stuff, it takes time and besides, the second time is at the expense of neatness.  Thanks guys, Marco, i think that you have competition here and you better be careful of what you say, Alex is watching you closely like big brother.  I should end up with the most accurate F on earth if i follow your advice.


    Brain ..Alex.... that's why I love this subject Shocked Rolling Eyes ........and be assure there is no competition here ,only love the history and the way work was done...it's so fantastic.....and interesting...cheers 

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:05 pm

    skyhigh wrote:and be assure there is no competition here ,only  love the history and the way work was done...it's so fantastic.....and interesting...cheers 

    + 1 cheers 

    I love participating on these subjects as well as everybody who likes Luftwaffe machines. Any evidence, info, or tip, will help. It doesnt matter who knows more or not...However this thing boosts the reader's interest even more.
    And what a great honor for me to have a gentleman such as Marco as a partener. !!!!

    skyhigh
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:13 pm

    Alex Kontiveis wrote:
    skyhigh wrote:and be assure there is no competition here ,only  love the history and the way work was done...it's so fantastic.....and interesting...cheers 

    + 1 cheers 

    I love participating on these subjects as well as everybody who likes Luftwaffe machines. Any evidence, info, or tip, will help. It doesnt matter who knows more or not...However this thing boosts the reader's interest even more.
    And what a great honor for me to have a gentleman such as Marco as a partener. !!!!



    Me too Alex ....may be some day we meet at our club meeting , or at next IPMS Telford... I love to talk about history of aircraft machines... My motto was always .......I learn.... You learn...We all learn..cheers 

    skyhigh
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:59 pm

    Brian you still need to replace the oil cooler, find you one from here..

    http://www.neomega-resin.com/vector/109.htm




    N.B. Brian I'm still want to ckeck clearly about this , because N. Africa F's.. most of them had the cooler replaced to late deep G type....not the blades....Question :!:So if it is correct you can still use the one you bought....Idea







    1) Supercharger: "A new, large supercharger intake was introduced with the F-4 variant... However, the first production F-4s from WNF and Erla still retained the narrow supercharger intake..."
    2) Oil cooler: "The F-4 originally carried the same shallow SKF 9-6130A oil cooler as the earlier Friedrich models, but the larger SKF Fo 927 oil cooler was introduced into service with the F-4/Z..."
    3) Prop blades: "A new, wider VDM 9-12087A propeller blade design was introduced during F-4 production as well, but the earlier 9-12010A blades were still seen on early F-4 models"
    Finally, "... all these could be easily retrofitted to earlier models in the field, with the possible exception of the wider VDM propeller..."

    skyhigh
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:08 pm

    .......Deep cooler SKF Fo 927


    ...Shallow type SKF 9-6130A


    Last edited by skyhigh on Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

    bcauchi
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  bcauchi on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:24 pm

    It would be great if i could use the one i have for the model. IT makes sense to have a larger oil cooler in the desert since temperatures are above normal there and it would allow for better cooling of the oil, less deterioration and maintenance and better running of the engines. You might be very correct there, we need to check some photos of Desert F's.

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:03 pm

    Marco, R U sure about the Fo970 type? My refferences talk about the 870....

    Brian...Things are simple...

    600 F-4/Z were built (deeper cooler) 55 pieces from Erla. All the rest 550 (aprox) machines were built at WNF.

    Your Work Num is 8704. That means that your machine comes from Erla factory. (8400 - 8806).

    55 pieces were configured as a "Z". (deeper cooler). The deeper cooller was fitted on Z configuration aircrafts cause of the GM-1 boost (plus the new VDM 912087A as Marco mentions above)

    The problem is that I can not find which of the 55 F-4/z airframes that were built at Erla Factory concerns your Work Num... or not.


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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:18 pm

    Alex that's what I'm trying to explain to Brian .. yes the Z series had all this change ...but there were exceptions ... the lust line read ...Idea 


    Exclamation ..Finally, "... all these could be easily retrofitted to earlier models in the field, with the possible exception of the wider VDM propeller..."


    The last Alex ..Fo 927 not 970....

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:55 pm

    Yes 927 (speed victim Embarassed )

    Anyway...927 or 870 cooler type?

    Yes I do believe to exceptions but personally I preffer the "by the book"... All these of course, in case that I miss the machine's real picture to configurate the rule or the exception.


    You own the real pics of the 8704. Is it a "z" or a simple F-4?


    PS... I'm the devil's advocate on this topic!!!

    Ps have you seen my request on Refference section?

    skyhigh
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:37 pm

    He he he...Yes Alex..me to ...these topics will become more and more interesting ...

    Ha ha...Laughing  good one... Alex ..no you did not missed the real machine's  picture this time ..Ha ha...Very Happy 

    Yes I have pic's of 8704 and it looks like a simple F4..and the prop is the VDM 9-12010A , but I cannot see the cooler Sad 

    sorry I have to keep the photos away As Brian wish ..and sure I have to keep the promise..


    About the Stuka yes I saw it and I'm working on it ..study scratch ...it's my pleasure to help you with the research..cheers

    skyhigh
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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:55 pm

    I found this table from the book Bf109F No54 Wydawnictwo Militaria pub..

    and as you mentioned they are from Erla factory. (8400 - 8806).
    but looks like most of them had the conver of 55...Question scratch 


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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:41 pm

    Τhe above table shows that 55 "Z" pieces have been constructed and converted during the same period among all the others.... together. scratch scratch 

    The problem still exists... Does the 8704 belongs to the 55 "Z" team?

    If we could find an even more detailed production list from Erla concerning the specific Wn Num, range, it would be great...

    or... a new better pic of the real one....

    Come on Marco...make your Magic!!!



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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:48 pm

    Let me ask U something... The pilot of the Red 4, was the Leutnand Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt , "FIFI"?

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  bcauchi on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:16 pm

    Hi Alex, the regular pilot of Red 4 was Paul Becker, another JG27 ace and Stahlshcmidt's regular machine was red 1. However, at one time for some reason, he flew a sortie in Red 4 and was lost in this machine to this day. He is listed as MIA, and was lost whilst flying red 4.

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:20 pm

    Alex Kontiveis wrote:Let me ask U something... The pilot of the Red 4, was the Leutnand Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt , "FIFI"?


    Ah... Alex Alex....my friend... there were three pilots flying this plane, the last one that flew it was lost and never found , and all of them were with high kill markings....but pls.. .. better ask Brian about this I don't want to spoil his found... you now him well...cheers 

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:23 pm

    There you see Alex ..... Brian are you catching up ..lol! 

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  skyhigh on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:29 pm

    Hans-Arnold "Fiffi" Stahlschmidt

    http://www.luftwaffe.cz/stahlschmidt.html


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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:54 pm

    That's nice... Thank U.

    So lets get back to the point... Till now all we have is the fact of the VDM9 existance on the Red 4, but that doesnt mean that it was a Z conv. Maybe Yes, maybe not.... 50%


    ...Great lol!

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  bcauchi on Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:02 pm

    Here are some progress pics. The cockpit components before closing up the fuselage. It is all closed up now. The seat isnot yet fixed in place since the seat belts have to bet fixed to a point on the back of the seat.






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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:29 am

    Brilliant Brian!!!!

    I think that the you should add the control collum's cables....The flare pistol should be a nice add on also.

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  bcauchi on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:52 am

    Thanks Alex, where was the flare pistol located? I cannot see it anywhere in the cockpit detail photos.

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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  Alex Kontiveis on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:51 am

    bcauchi wrote:Thanks Alex, where was the flare pistol located? I cannot see it anywhere in the cockpit detail photos.  
    Take a look at post No:17 page 2 for Walther flare pistol port.

    Another pic of the cockpit that indicates the port is the following. Maybe Marco can post more pics


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    Re: Bf109 F4 Trop.

    Post  bcauchi on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:16 pm

    OK, i knew about that flare port but did the pistol used to be stuck in the port all the time? Maybe the pilot had it and used it if necessary. i have not seen a cockpit photo with the pistol in the port.

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