Criticizing the critics corner

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    alexbb
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  alexbb on Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:28 pm

    ive kept quite because i thought me and ray c where alone on this but it seems i was wrong.my vote goes for keeping this thread.

    Joseph
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Joseph on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:02 pm

    Ivan, how many posts do we see refering to any critisisim posted on material that belong (especially) to non SSM members, not a single one. That's why I said this should be directed to the un-finished product, because once the model is finished no ammount of constructive critisisim will do any good. Still whoever prefer to post his work in the traditional threads can do so and will only receive praise and wows etc etc but if one wants to get constructive critisism, rest assured that he will get it, by this one will know what he is putting himself into, critisisim.

    I don't think that we will start critisising material in other threads, this IMO is useless, only work posted in this thread will be up to the usual SSM barage Smile

    We are the best, because we do a lot of constructive critisism, so I think and I might be wrong, by the introduction of this corner all our forum members, I am referring to no one in particular just a generic comment and this includes myself as well, will become the best as well.

    After all we will make or break this thread, by our contributions, IMO all we did was killing this un-born thread.

    J

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Tancred on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:52 pm

    What we can do is turn the whole thing upside down. We keep the different categories of AFVs, Figures, Aviation etc. for 'Constructive Criticism' that is in here we post work-in-progress models and people can expect comments of praise and criticism. And change the Critic's Corner into a showcase for any type of finished model since as Joseph said once a model is ready it is useless criticising.

    Tancred afro

    J.Fenech
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  J.Fenech on Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:08 pm

    I have not read much this thread before and now that I have done so rapidly to get up to date, I think that it is a storm in a teacup. IMHO I think that you can critisize evreywhere, given that it is constructive and objective, whether the model is finished or not. It is true that suggestions during 'work in progress' have much more effect than when to critisize a finished model, but even in this stage any critisism is also useful, as to the next project. Even a finished model can be critisized guys, not only wow, great, etc....... I may sound redundant, but why not change this thread to work in progress, and keep the other thread/sections for the finished products, but to critisize, you can do in both, as to do is a teaching process and it is up to the individual to accept, assess and amend to any suggestions.

    skyhigh
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  skyhigh on Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:24 pm

    May I ...I agree with last suggestions , although for the moment ...or for the past years I have not built any maodels ..but still I want to comment on new build , yes I beleave that this tread is for work in proggres and I see it's vital for the sake of the hobby and especially for begginers, I hate to see finished models with wrong versions and wrong colours etc..it gives me inside.
    If he or she wants to built out of the box well it's up to him or her, but at least still want to help for good construction and finished work .
    I love this hobby so much the research it's history , so I wish that every model he or she build's will be a work of art and authenticity...so I agree109%

    iCocker
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  iCocker on Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:34 pm

    Come on it's not a storm, it's organisation ala SSM, see already valid reasoning is coming out, very good points. Good idea of an SBS section ...

    Ivan

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  RayCaruana on Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:27 am

    iCocker wrote:... see already valid reasoning is coming out, very good points. Good idea of an SBS section ...

    Ivan

    See, that's why one should not rush into closing down a section before listening to others who haven't yet had the time to log on, read and express their opinions.Wink

    There goes my vow of silence again, I'm becoming like another certain Ray I know lol! lol! lol!


    Last edited by RayCaruana on Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:44 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Nothing worth of mentioning:-))

    Noel Petroni
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Noel Petroni on Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:48 am

    Doc wrote:
    I meant to say...Noel could very well have made the observation of the base in the AFV section! What was the problem with that?

    Well....... Doc.........as Joseph said that once the model is ready one has to be more careful to critisize. THe base thing in Alex's base is really no big deal and the whole thing will pass with flying colours just the same. Alex might say that his intention was to make the effect of soft terrain. But he was brave to put it forward for critic no matter what! It was like he was saying:

    ok guys, stop flattering me and be honest now. I can take a critic!

    Many of us are all unsure how or if to say something about a friend's model. We are afraid to offend.

    @Ray
    Noel on the other hand, again IMHO raised the most mediocre issue, with his usual call for rules of what and how we should critisize this or that, to what extent and to what degree

    I'll tell you ray. One good way to start saying something is this:
    Method 1: The tank needs more chipping
    Good Method: If it were me I would include more chipping around this area

    Method 1: The flesh colour needs more highlights
    Good Method: Do you think the flesh needs more highlights?

    One other thing: If we had to debate over if we should or where or how to to close, over a suggestion made in this thread......how are we going to critisize a model which is a more sensitive issue

    The idea of critizing the model whilst it's being build is a good idea.

    I would like to hear opinions of members on how and when and what to critize.

    Regards
    Noel

    bcauchi
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  bcauchi on Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:10 am

    It depends at what point you see the model. If it is already built i normally mention points which can still be corrected or made better. If in the building stage, then it is easier to speak out since the modeler is still in time to do adjustments.

    Then there is the type of criticism which one can mention but can only be implemented in a future project if the model is already done. By the way, the perfect model does not exist and any model can be improved even if this is a very small thing. so the object of criticism should be to improve our modeling and not necessarily to turn an already finished project into the perfect model.

    alexbb
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  alexbb on Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:17 pm

    ive always been told to learn from mistakes made by oneself and others.
    and as i said before nobody is forceing anybody to post in this now defunct thread.
    is it that we are all afraid that someone might hurt our vanity by critiicisng our work or we do not want this thread so our absence is not noticed ???

    IMPOSSIBLE AS IT MAY SEEM NOW THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THE SUBJECT

    Joseph
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Joseph on Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:08 pm

    I think (100% positive sure) that all this uproar was because of the word CRITISISIM, and yes maybe it is a bit of a harsh word, so if before we started firing all our guns, the SSM way and we never learn, took a differenrt approach at the idea we should have come with some tangible ideas.

    How about 'Under Observation' after all we all observe other's work, put comments for improvement and as encouragement and also (we miss this a lot) ask questions to the fellow modeller regarding technique etc used or to be used.

    The new topic 'Finished Models', is it going to be divided in the different sections, do not forget that we are a generic forum covering all aspects of scale modelling!

    I realy hate it when I read a Vow of Silence Sad Sad

    This saying used to hang at the old 'SSM House', and I searously think that all of us must treasure these wise words (or something like this but the message is still clear):

    'Ensure that BRAIN is in Gear befor MOUTH is Engaged'

    Those of you who remember the wording better please correct, after all this is the Critics corner Very Happy Very Happy

    J

    iCocker
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  iCocker on Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:18 pm

    Guys,

    I think we are all misunderstanding this issue. I feel that in all our threads there should be constructive critisiism and praise, at least it is how we acheive our goals BUT I do not see that use of creating a dedicated discussion besides what has already started in different threads. I personally do not agree that a finished model should not be discussed, why not ... if there issues might these help others in solving them if they plan to tackle the project, besides it is also a stepping stone for the next. If there is praise let it be, so it gives that particular model the benchmark and admiration it deserves.

    If a modeller is putting in a pic to our viewing he is already and deliberitly putting his work for critisism, for me critisism is not reserved for members only or modellers only, neither am I afraid to point out my view ... apart it is an opinion and subject for discussion.

    May I just add to end my opinion here that Michelangelo's David was critisiszed by his patron as he thaught the nose was too large ... today we say that statue is the most perfect renaissance artpiece Embarassed

    Personally I vote for an SBS thread, it can start more debate, critisism and sharing of ideas ... but Joseph's idea is not bad at all.

    I am casting my VETO on this issue Razz

    Iv

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Joseph on Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:50 pm

    Ivan, take a look at all the topics in the forum and take note of all posts regarded as critisisim/observations, you will be able to count these with just your finger tips, anzi sometimes it is the other way round. No one and repeat no one is going to critic any work of a fellow modeller, especially someone we have never seen or met, and this just on photos (especially if you have a photographer like mine).

    I hope that I am wrong but if one does not state that his work is open for critisism/observation he will get none. We all log on foreign forums, how many posts regarding critisisim/observations do we see, very few or none at all so do we think that we are different. I repeat what I said in my previous post, this forum is not an extension of our weekly meeting but a link to the rest of the modelling community so we must start thinking in this manner.

    I am loving this debate Smile so every one please continue posting and in the mentime happy scale modelling.

    Maybe a silly question Embarassed what is SBS short for? forsi qed inhanbaq ghal xejn Smile

    No priviliges Smile Smile exist on this forum and as such this forum is free from VETOs Smile Smile unless we start offending the feelings of each other.

    J

    iCocker
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  iCocker on Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:15 pm

    Joe,

    SBS means Step by Step article/thread.

    So concluding the problem and issue is not the threads per see but US modellers, if we put that little bit of an effort and debate on the work in progress, paintwork etc etc ... let us face it we do not need to critics in see only but debate, there are so many techniques, fashion nad ideas so why not sharing more ... so guys it is up to us to make this forum more lively! At home my worst critic is my wife and she does not have a historical background but a good eye for detail, apart it is nice sometimes to have an opinion of someone who look at things in a different eye ...

    Personally I am not afraid to say my views, debates and beleives, anyone who dare to put a Hospitaller and I might be your nightmare
    or your gurdian angel Twisted Evil

    Cerio

    Ivan

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  RayCaruana on Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:26 pm

    Jimporta nghid wahda bil-Malti please, apposta, biex ma' jifmuniex il-barranin, u forsi anki nispjega ruhi darba ghal dejjem, car u tond x'nixtieq ezatt personalment minn din il-mishuta corner?

    Jien nixtieq li jkun hemm post fejn jien, (biex ma' nsemmi l-hadd) minghajr ma' noqghod nistenna l-erbgha jasal (jew ghax forsi dik il-gimgha ma' nkunx nista nigi l-klabb), inkun nista niehu l-kritika taghkhom U TA' DAWK IL-BARRANIN U NON-MEMBERS li ma' jigu qatt il-klabb! biex inkun nista nkompli x-xoghol fuq il-mudell filwaqt li nkun ukoll qed niehu l-opinjoni ta' dawk li qatt ma' jistghu jikkritikawni ghax forsi ma' joqghodux Malta! Minhabba li din tkun sezzjoni ghaliha wehidha, u ghax inkun jiena stess li poggejthom hemm, dawk li qatt ma' rawni jew kellmuni f'hajjithom, johduha "as read" li ma niddejjaqx jekk jaqalawli biex nitghallem!

    Issa hag' ohra. Ejjew inkunu onesti maghna nfusna. Nassumu jigi wiehed Taljan, ohxon u kapaci jiekol turtiera arancini (biex ma' nsemmix ismu Smile...TINSEWX, GHANDNA TNEJN MINNHOM DIGA' HAWNHEKK) u joghgbu jpoggi x-xoghol tieghu f'dan il-forum. Min minna? ibda minni, huwa bil-bajd bizzejjed biex jikkritikalu xogholhu, jekk mhux ghax ikun poggieh HU STESS f'post fejn qed jitlobna naghmlu dan? L-istess jaghmel hu tafux, ghax jekk ma' jkunx jaf lil modeller inside out mhux sa jikkritikah minn jeddu. Min jaf, forsi dawn in-nies ukoll ikunu jixtiequ l-opinjoni taghna, BLA KANTUNIERI, min jaf? Qatt ma' tajnihom il-post fejn, specifikament ghalhekk, mhux hekk?

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  iCocker on Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:38 pm

    Rej

    Imma ghala ma ghandekx tkun kritikat fuq l-istess thread li ga kont bdejt go sections l-ohra, hafna minnha dik qed isaqsu u nqalu pandemonju?

    Iv

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  RayCaruana on Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:43 pm

    Ivan, din diskussjoni sana, mhux pandimonju.

    Jahasra, jien qed nifhem xi trid tghid ghax nafek sew,imma ghallinqas ghidli taqbilx ma' li ktibt fit-tieni paragrafu?

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  RayCaruana on Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:48 pm

    Sa jkolli nhallikhom nies ghax sarli l-hin!!! See you tomorrow cheers cheers Ma' kienx forum, keif iffissajt Very Happy Very Happy

    Ray
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Ray on Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:18 pm

    BE SURE THAT BRAIN IS IN GEAR BEFORE ENGAGING MOUTH

    Joseph, I think this sign was still there when we left the Old House in ruins and it was set up by Aldo Chetcuti Twisted Evil

    I couldn't log on this morning as I was quite busy at work (for a change) so I'm sure you've ALL increased your tally of posts Laughing

    I bet my round head that Ray C is rubbing his hands in glee for starting this thread as he's gonna reach Platinum before me lol!

    Now for some painting ghax minn quddiem dan ma jizebahx wahdu l-Piper Sad and will take a better look LATER ON cheers

    Ray affraid

    Dottore
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    I remember for sure....

    Post  Dottore on Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:04 pm

    Many instances where Ivan for example criticised or guied Sam (to mention one) regarding the hospitaller (red one) he was painting...he told him the cross was wrong in one instance.

    I pointed out to Noel that the return rollers on his sherman should not be rubber instead of telling him WOW and Great only...

    And Ivan also pointed out to Noel that he wasnt quite sure about the polished steel effect on the shermans idler wheel...

    So to make a point to Joseph Farr and the rest...criticism is GOING on in the usual forums...by those who find it useful at least. Ray Caruana just made a point to the rest of SSM memebers and non that it is OK to comment and criticise constructively but as said ad nauseum by me Ivan And Ray F I really dont need we need a dedicated forum for double posts to criticize.

    I also like Tancred's idea to consider the AFV FIG MARINE PLANE forums critic forums and have a finished gallery.
    Also I like Joes idea on the SBS forum....

    Dottore

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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Noel Petroni on Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:47 pm

    I feel that both Ray Caruana and Doc have a valid reason.

    Posting a SBS pictures during the week will save time on modelling hours instead of waiting for the Wednesday meeting. Case in point was my Sherman posts which Doc. just pointed out.

    On the other hand posting a model or SBS in a specific thread where you are specifically asking for it to be criticized is a sure way of getting an honest feedback.

    Question: Where did the threads go? Alex had posted his AFV for criticism and I couldn't find it

    Regards
    Noel

    RayCaruana
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  RayCaruana on Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:57 pm

    Dottore wrote:
    I also like Tancred's idea to consider the AFV FIG MARINE PLANE forums critic forums and have a finished gallery.
    Also I like Joes idea on the SBS forum....

    Dottore

    I agree. Let's try them and see if this debate has at least served for something Wink

    Ray
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Ray on Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:22 am

    RayCaruana wrote:
    Dottore wrote:
    I also like Tancred's idea to consider the AFV FIG MARINE PLANE forums critic forums and have a finished gallery.
    Also I like Joes idea on the SBS forum....

    Dottore

    I agree. Let's try them and see if this debate has at least served for something Wink


    I AGREE cheers

    Ray affraid

    iCocker
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  iCocker on Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:47 am

    Finally we reached a consensus ala SSM way ... YIPPI!!!!!

    Will give it a try, so Tancred could you be so kind channel SBS articles to this side of the forum ...

    Ivan

    Ray
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    Re: Criticizing the critics corner

    Post  Ray on Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:47 am

    Mela waqaf kollox hawn jew? Ghajjejtu tikkumbattu? lol! Jew xi Ray C tellgha posts mhux hazin u ha jiehu break Suspect

    Joking apart, the forum is really serving for MOST to empty their guns during the week and then at Club meeting........nothing, just no mention or barely a mention of what went on during the week which for us is from Wed to Wed obviously Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    I'm sure I'll be answered asa the sun rises and most of you would be at work Evil or Very Mad while I would be sleeping from a night of hard labour Rolling Eyes hey I would be back to work at 1pm ta so not much rest from 5am Sad

    Vive l'SSM cheers

    Vive l'TanKRed cheers

    Ray affraid

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