Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

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    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:53 pm

    Noel Petroni wrote:
    Joking apart, I never really contemplated on the wet look effect, since the "sheen" is obtained quite well with the satiny finish of the Vallejo's

    And one has to be a WIZARD to conjure "sweat in scale" on anything smaller then 180mm at least

    But it is worth considering nonetheless

    Ray, in my opinion, to get the sweat wet look as Ivan pointed out, you need to make hair strands attached to each other. Do you understand what I mean? When long hair sweats, it tends to attach itself together.

    This effect alone will be a good base to than continue to bring out the wet effect with satin varnish. The sweat smell will be a challenge!

    Regards
    Noel

    I'll do my best pale pale pale pale pale pale pale

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:04 pm

    Shaved ALL head & facial hair as I kept seeing the head a tad too big Sad

    Also removed the rolled mail coif as the tool I was working with, which actually was a 0.8mm brass rod inserted into an old brush handle, produced a bit of over sized rings Sad

    So replaced the tool with a 5mm brass rod which painted more or less close to the kit's mail on a test bed I made of some flattened Duro......still can't tell 100% until I start to splash the paint Laughing

    This is the beard + moustache and rolled mail coif more or less DONE cheers

    Sculpted the hair/hairline so I would have a draft on which I'll finalize last visit to hairdresser lol!


































    Last edited by Ray on Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Noel Petroni
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Noel Petroni on Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:51 pm

    Hi Ray,

    No question about your modelling skills.

    My comment would be about the hair:
    a) as he is, he looks like he is a guy with a desk-job. I may be wrong in thinking like this but I was thinking along the lines of a more 'Jesus' type hair cut.

    Something like this..... but not to over-done like this


    This is my opinion after all and dose not have to be taken as a correct method.


    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:31 pm

    Noel that is exactly more or less what I am after and you are an ANGEL I love you in posting that pic as it really HELPS cheers

    I just drafted the hair line in pencil and in duro so that I would have a basis to what/where I'll attach the hair style I have in mind and also to get the proportion of the shape and size right in my eyes, since I am no natural sculptor. so that I won't go overboard with the volume Sad pale Evil or Very Mad

    bcauchi
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  bcauchi on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:37 am

    Looking good Ray, i agree with you and noel about the hair, it will look better. Great going. It is a really nice looking figure.

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  J.Fenech on Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:20 pm

    guys, what is wrong with short hair Wink , maybe he was bald or he shaved his hair. Rolling Eyes Maybe he also had a desk job and was called to duty What a Face

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Noel Petroni on Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:23 pm

    Hi Ray,

    Maybe these will help a bit.

    This painting is of the "The battle of Ashkelon',


    This is a 19th century painting depicting the Franks on reaching Jerusalem.






    And this is also a 19th century painting titles " The Return of the Crusader"

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:48 pm

    Thanks Noel Cool

    Interesting all of them but the last pic "The Return of the Crusader" is very inspiring to say the least Twisted Evil got me thinking Twisted Evil for the future Twisted Evil

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  alexbb on Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:55 pm

    ray be careful in using these paintings as reference, inspiring and beautiful as they are, most if not all are renaissance paintings with armour and dresswear of a later period than the crusades

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:08 pm

    alex wrote:ray be careful in using these paintings as reference, inspiring and beautiful as they are, most if not all are renaissance paintings with armour and dresswear of a later period than the crusades

    Yes yes Alex am aware of that don't worry Twisted Evil

    But the Return of the Crusader is really inspiring and can be worked in a sort of "streched historical/imagination" picture, that is you mix a bit the armour let's say from the 14thC till the 15thC where you combine mail and plate armour evolution over a Century and you portray this Very Old Crusader on his return Twisted Evil

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Samwel18 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:26 pm

    The Return of the Crusader from the holy land and will be depicted as a templar if done by me Razz Razz Razz

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:13 am

    Samwel18 wrote:The Return of the Crusader from the holy land and will be depicted as a templar if done by me Razz Razz Razz

    Buzz off copy cat Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Noel Petroni on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:45 pm

    Sorry to post this here, but I think this might interest you, Ray

    How to photograph your figures by Giovanni Azzara

    http://tanksandthings.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=392:how-to-photograph-your-figures&catid=90:giovanni-azzara&Itemid=68

    smallia
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  smallia on Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:01 pm

    Ray, i'm going to chime in,especially since you asked me to SmileSmile. Anyway, here are my thoughts. At first I thought that the first head was a tad big and was about to ask you to post pics with arms attached. Then I saw the pics and confirmed that it is just right. The second head....well, I better not say anything:)SmileSmile. Let me tell you to just not use it:)SmileSmile.Finally,(forgive me for this but....)resculpt the hair.NOW !!!!It is harming the overall beautifull aspect of the figure. Let me know if you need any help. Ah...another thing. Can you tell me why you sculpted all the hair before doing the ears?SmileSmile

    Steve

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  RayCaruana on Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:04 pm

    smallia wrote:Ray, i'm going to chime in,especially since you asked me to SmileSmile. Anyway, here are my thoughts. At first I thought that the first head was a tad big and was about to ask you to post pics with arms attached. Then I saw the pics and confirmed that it is just right. The second head....well, I better not say anything:)SmileSmile. Let me tell you to just not use it:)SmileSmile.Finally,(forgive me for this but....)resculpt the hair.NOW !!!!It is harming the overall beautifull aspect of the figure. Let me know if you need any help. Ah...another thing. Can you tell me why you sculpted all the hair before doing the ears?SmileSmile

    Steve

    Kif gie rrankat dan!!! Shocked Shocked

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:57 am

    Hope the pics will do some talking good or bad lol!

    Please FIRE ON as usual lol!

    BTW.......everything will stay as it is irrelevant if the head/hair is good or not because am gonna vomit over this figure now as I TOOK TOOOOOO LONG and the time to splash the paint has elapsed by far Sad so next will be fixing sheild slings and arms + dagger and posiibly sword/sheat Twisted Evil

    I'll bring him with me to club later on this eve Laughing



































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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  iCocker on Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:48 am

    You created a dilemma for me mate ...
    Sorry Ray but he looks like an 18c painting of Jesus Christ portrait but wearing a uniform. In my eyes he is not capturing the image of a 13c Knight not to say anything about Christ portraits in that period, I feel he has a lot of hollywoodian effects, looks like he just came out of Kingdom of Heaven and hey I really hate many things in that movie!

    We might argue that he is a brother knight in a remote desolate state of Outremer, but was not that the reality at all, Outremer was not a desolate state but a flurishing kingdom as a new feudal society. We have to remember these were nobles, the elite of a society, their image and ego was high. It was so high that they asked the Pope to dress different from a sergeant in their own army! They were all fashion fellowers though the rule forbid dressing in rich robes but nothing states how to cut your hair apart only being forbid to shave face totally. Know going back to military, and speaking as a medeival renactor myself, rest assured the first thing you do if you dress in mail is to get rid of long hair as it really get antangled in the rings and man that hurts and is frastrating, one might say that he wears a coif but still it does not cover all the hair but just support the top part. Fashion for the period was 'bob' like cut just covering the ears ... dak il-ferq fin-nofs ma tantx qed jghin IMO!

    Another thing that kind of mail was laced on the back of the head, to take it off one has first to losen up the back and enlarge the open head area to get it out, so under the chin/neck area he should have more volume and material. It is very different from early ones which had just that kind of side opening.

    On the other hand if you are into a bit of artistic license and you portraying an icon reflecting Christ, I give you credit to it but I feel it is not reflecting the period and history well with that style IMHO ... so whatever, finally you are the artist and you are communicating the message, so depends what you have in mind, and again I might be looking at things wrong Laughing
    Vanni

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:14 pm

    Ivan, all points taken and appreciated as I knew EXACTLY what your reaction was going to be Twisted Evil however the coif and everything else has to suffice I'm afraid as I have to throw some paint at him sooner rather then later since Catania looms over the horizon pale Embarassed

    Yes I got carried away in that during the first attempt of the head hair, I immediately saw him as Jesus Christ! Infact I wrote that he will resemble someone very famous after Hardy's post if you go back on the thread....I have a santa of Jesus Christ in my workshop so I worked on that as well Twisted Evil

    Re Kingdom of Heaven I LOVE ALL of it despite MANY things like I LOVE Gladiator despite MANY things Evil or Very Mad

    Historicity aside, I let my imagination run havoc and will see how he paints up as Jesus Christ (could be John the Baptist as well pale) as a Hospitaller...a Miles Christi or should it read Christi Miles (idea for the caption if it is feasable)

    I will patch up my concsience (not really Evil or Very Mad Laughing ) when I paint the Helmeted Black Brother Knight after I buy another one from Catania cheers

    Hope to bring him along with me this eve, as its been quite long since I brought a figure in the making to club Cool

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Samwel18 on Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:36 pm

    Ray wrote:Ivan, all points taken and appreciated as I knew EXACTLY what your reaction was going to be Twisted Evil however the coif and everything else has to suffice I'm afraid as I have to throw some paint at him sooner rather then later since Catania looms over the horizon pale Embarassed

    Yes I got carried away in that during the first attempt of the head hair, I immediately saw him as Jesus Christ! Infact I wrote that he will resemble someone very famous after Hardy's post if you go back on the thread....I have a santa of Jesus Christ in my workshop so I worked on that as well Twisted Evil

    Re Kingdom of Heaven I LOVE ALL of it despite MANY things like I LOVE Gladiator despite MANY things Evil or Very Mad

    Historicity aside, I let my imagination run havoc and will see how he paints up as Jesus Christ (could be John the Baptist as well pale) as a Hospitaller...a Miles Christi or should it read Christi Miles (idea for the caption if it is feasable)

    I will patch up my concsience (not really Evil or Very Mad Laughing ) when I paint the Helmeted Black Brother Knight after I buy another one from Catania cheers

    Hope to bring him along with me this eve, as its been quite long since I brought a figure in the making to club Cool

    whatever dude :p

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:36 pm

    Samwel18 wrote:
    Ray wrote:Ivan, all points taken and appreciated as I knew EXACTLY what your reaction was going to be Twisted Evil however the coif and everything else has to suffice I'm afraid as I have to throw some paint at him sooner rather then later since Catania looms over the horizon pale Embarassed

    Yes I got carried away in that during the first attempt of the head hair, I immediately saw him as Jesus Christ! Infact I wrote that he will resemble someone very famous after Hardy's post if you go back on the thread....I have a santa of Jesus Christ in my workshop so I worked on that as well Twisted Evil

    Re Kingdom of Heaven I LOVE ALL of it despite MANY things like I LOVE Gladiator despite MANY things Evil or Very Mad

    Historicity aside, I let my imagination run havoc and will see how he paints up as Jesus Christ (could be John the Baptist as well pale) as a Hospitaller...a Miles Christi or should it read Christi Miles (idea for the caption if it is feasable)

    I will patch up my concsience (not really Evil or Very Mad Laughing ) when I paint the Helmeted Black Brother Knight after I buy another one from Catania cheers

    Hope to bring him along with me this eve, as its been quite long since I brought a figure in the making to club Cool

    whatever dude :p

    Nice one copy cat lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:43 pm

    For the benefit of those who won't make it to club this eve here he is prior to undercoating pale
















    alexbb
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  alexbb on Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:07 pm


    PAINT

    PAINT

    PAINT

    GET THE MESSAGE

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  bcauchi on Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:48 pm

    All historical considerations and inaccuracies brushed aside, i love what you did to his face and hair and whatever else you modified. I love the way he looks although, as ivan pointed out, he may not fit the bill for the kind of figure you are modelling. I would not leave it like that if it were mine, Catania or not, i hate having something which i know is inaccurate. Can;t you afford one afternoon or a couple of hours just to fix his hair? That seems to be the problem after all.

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Noel Petroni on Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:25 pm

    Probably the hair matter is like to what is panzer grey!

    I found this
    Middle Ages Hairstyles - the Early Franks hairstyles
    "The hair is never cut from the heads of the Frankish kings' sons. From early youth their hair falls gracefully over their shoulders, it is parted on the forehead, and falls equally on both sides; it is with them a matter to which they give special attention." We are told, besides, that they sprinkled it with gold-dust, and plaited it in small bands, which they ornamented with pearls and precious metals.


    It seems that parting the hair to fall on both sides equally was a fashion of nobility!


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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Noel Petroni on Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:44 pm

    More information found on a forum

    I was reading one day a book by Amin Malouf about the Crusades as seen by the Arabs. In his book, he states twice (as far as I can remember) that the crusaders had long hair. Now, I'm aware that a lot of Normans participated in the crusades, and during the days of William the conqueror (just several years previously) they shaved the backs of their heads. I also have seen several examples of iconography in which western Europeans are shown with more or less short hair. Can someone please enlighten me on the 'doos the crusaders wore?

    Crusaders came from several European countries, even though French and Germans probably were predominant; however, we doi know of Italians, Brits, Spaniards and other countries' crusaders.

    It's likely that their hairdoes varied; on the other hand, it's also likely arabs noticed those who resembled more different from them, in that as well as in other aspects, forgetting those whose appearance was more "normal" from their POV.


    If any of you have gone through the Alexiad the perceptive Anna Comnena records the hairstyles of the leading crusaders when she says "and Bohemund, unlike the other crusaders, had his hair cut short (to the ears), unlike the other men who lets theirs vainly grow long past their shoulders". Most of the crusaders had fairly longish hair at the back but it was cut short at the front according to Anna and my history lecturer a couple of weeks ago mentions this also. So in the first crusade only one prominent crusader had short hair. It would seem a people from a cold, rough climate who are enduring the rigours and deprivation of a military campaign allowed their hair to grow long. Such rustic men rarely cared much for the affectation and attention needed to have short hair.

    Anna Comnena actually notes that the leading crusaders, with the singular exception of Bohemond, kept their hair long for reasons of vanity. She thought Bohemond was more masculine because he did not follow this fashion, among other reasons (as a 14 yr old girl I suspect she had a bit of an infatuation with him). She records that all the other crusading leaders had hair grown past their shoulders. Considering most did not take more than several months to reach Constantinople after setting out and also that they had plenty of time to rest in Constantinople with access to its very extensive personal grooming facilities it would seem to indicate the crusading leaders thought long hair made them look more manly. It seems to be a fashion of warriors, the long hair hopefully making the wearer look fierce and untamed. For fashion trends we cannot really rely on the art of the time all that much, if the Bayeux tapestry were accurate the vast bulk of figures depicted would have beards.

    [i]My opinion is to judge his clothing. A very important point. His tunic is all patched and torn meaning
    a) he has been in battle for a long period and no time for hair cuts
    b) he is not wealthy to carry servents with him so he can have a haircut
    c) being in battle for a long period the hair will look a mess due to the heat and sweat

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