Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  iCocker on Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:11 am

    Noel Petroni wrote:More information found on a forum

    I was reading one day a book by Amin Malouf about the Crusades as seen by the Arabs. In his book, he states twice (as far as I can remember) that the crusaders had long hair. Now, I'm aware that a lot of Normans participated in the crusades, and during the days of William the conqueror (just several years previously) they shaved the backs of their heads. I also have seen several examples of iconography in which western Europeans are shown with more or less short hair. Can someone please enlighten me on the 'doos the crusaders wore?

    Crusaders came from several European countries, even though French and Germans probably were predominant; however, we doi know of Italians, Brits, Spaniards and other countries' crusaders.

    It's likely that their hairdoes varied; on the other hand, it's also likely arabs noticed those who resembled more different from them, in that as well as in other aspects, forgetting those whose appearance was more "normal" from their POV.


    If any of you have gone through the Alexiad the perceptive Anna Comnena records the hairstyles of the leading crusaders when she says "and Bohemund, unlike the other crusaders, had his hair cut short (to the ears), unlike the other men who lets theirs vainly grow long past their shoulders". Most of the crusaders had fairly longish hair at the back but it was cut short at the front according to Anna and my history lecturer a couple of weeks ago mentions this also. So in the first crusade only one prominent crusader had short hair. It would seem a people from a cold, rough climate who are enduring the rigours and deprivation of a military campaign allowed their hair to grow long. Such rustic men rarely cared much for the affectation and attention needed to have short hair.

    Anna Comnena actually notes that the leading crusaders, with the singular exception of Bohemond, kept their hair long for reasons of vanity. She thought Bohemond was more masculine because he did not follow this fashion, among other reasons (as a 14 yr old girl I suspect she had a bit of an infatuation with him). She records that all the other crusading leaders had hair grown past their shoulders. Considering most did not take more than several months to reach Constantinople after setting out and also that they had plenty of time to rest in Constantinople with access to its very extensive personal grooming facilities it would seem to indicate the crusading leaders thought long hair made them look more manly. It seems to be a fashion of warriors, the long hair hopefully making the wearer look fierce and untamed. For fashion trends we cannot really rely on the art of the time all that much, if the Bayeux tapestry were accurate the vast bulk of figures depicted would have beards.

    [i]My opinion is to judge his clothing. A very important point. His tunic is all patched and torn meaning
    a) he has been in battle for a long period and no time for hair cuts
    b) he is not wealthy to carry servents with him so he can have a haircut
    c) being in battle for a long period the hair will look a mess due to the heat and sweat
    Noel you are mixing things, what you found is based on the first crusade which happened in the early 12c, here we have a Miles Christi from the 1320-50. The highmark of the Kingdom of Outremer, defender of the Faith.
    Your assumptions and opinions are not based on any historical facts as you have to based things on a typical crusader not an elite knight from an Order. Knights in an Order did noit have personal servants, they were strict in their rules but had squires. As I said till date nothing I have found regarding hairstyles, but if we are assuming something and as all Orders were based on a monastic rule, long hair was not the norm for clerics if he was not a hermit!
    As your issue on the tattered garment, OK this figure looks h has seen better days, but just remember that at that period the Mamluks were winning back all the major territories, reclaimed after the conquest of Saladin. If they were on a defensive or maybe under siege, infact he is armed as a foot man at arms not for a horseman, still sieges did not took years, the major and biggest ones ended in days, so I guess what might he had was long beard not his hair as a biker, as it takes more than a month to get a couple of cm to grow! In the first crusade it was different, these crusaders have been travelling across Europe till Costantinopile, then all the way to Acre, then to Jerusalem, this took months and years! Our Crusader is established in the Knigdom of Outremer so he is no wonderer! Infact a muslim chronicale states he smelled the Frankish army before it arrived!

    When dealing with Crusaders and the Knigdom of Outremer, the problem is that it spens from th 1120s till late 1300s ... it is so vast, changes in fashion and military equipment. Leaders came from all the major countries like France, Italy and Germany ... not to forget influence from the Arabic states, Byzantians, Orthodox, Greeks, Turcopoles and Armenians. Infact the market is flooded with mix and match of this kind of figures nad very few are pin point!
    This is like saying that all WW2 Germans had blue eyes and blonde hair!
    Yet again there is a given token to the artist for artistic licencse as finally if for example Ray wants to portray the role of a melitant cleric, an image of a saint or Jesus himself to get the feel of the zeal of a religious war, I give credit to that ... IMHO! That is art subject to critisism!

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:50 am

    Its good to see that I have generated SO MUCH INTEREST & HYPE yet again with a piece I'm working on cheers guess I'm UNBEATABLE on SOMETHING at least Twisted Evil

    Ivan, may I dare to correct you please pale he has spurs which I'll fix in the end, so that puts him in the saddle at some point Cool

    Also its good you pointed out to Noel that he's MIXING things as I saw the post after club and was too tired to answer him.

    However Noel thanks for your interest and for trying to see things from my point of view, but again I do know that what Ivan is trying to preach is Historicity after all, and I do know that I have BREACHED that to a certain point with what I'm portraying pale

    Now back to the bench cheers

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  iCocker on Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:04 pm

    Correction Ray, [golden/gilded] spurs are mark that he is a KNIGHT not that he is fighting from a saddle! Sergeants and squires do not wear spurs if not riding!
    Still I wonder how he can fight on foot with them [so I guess if any of us is in his state fighting on foot I forget my ego and get rid of the spurs], then again you can never fight with a two handed sword from horseback , only if you have the brains of Mel Gibbson or some Hollywood hereo ... Twisted Evil
    I think it is good generating such a discussion, as we get lost in our enthusiasm of painting and forget taht in medeival change happened regularly ... this teaches us that we do not just generalise a figure medeival, but we start genralising with date, period, battle etc etc ... this is the same to the foe, not all muslims wore turbans, where dark and spoke arabic. a good number of Crusaders [including Templars] changed sides ... apart a Mumeluk is not similar dressed to a Fatamid!

    Again as I told you Ray, I accept your figure as an artistic licencse but hey I hate such commercial figures like the one Noel listed by Andrea, he looks like the charming prince from a FairyTale or Aragon from LOTR! Simply not accurate to show the period and date! But then again it's a matter of taste ...
    On the other side Noel, it is good you found that literature about the first crusade, it conferms more that they really looked a rough horde! May I mix things more, recently I have been reading about women crusaders and at some point in an eraly crusade, unfortunetly not recalling her name and period this maid dressed up as a man at arms, including her entourage ... in Italy there was a widow taht sided with a certain Pope and took arms and lead an army against another italian city ... she also dressed in mail, shield and sword ... sounds interesting eh!

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Noel Petroni on Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:44 pm

    However Noel thanks for your interest and for trying to see things from my point of view, but again I do know that what Ivan is trying to preach is Historicity after all, and I do know that I have BREACHED that to a certain point with what I'm portraying

    You're welcome! I was just searching the net to see if the hairstyle you chose can be justified! I'm not well versed in the history of Knights and I'm sure Ivan can direct you more correctly.

    Yes.... Ivan, I also do not like that Andrea figure! It's more like a girl's dream..... a handsome knight!

    Regards
    Noel


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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  iCocker on Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:29 am

    Basicly what I meant more then anything is that any kind of referance still has also to be scrutinized and compared to check if its right. Lets face it is damn difficult to be 100%, and never shall we be if no one invent a time machine. Referances on the net and old books have also to be checked properly, what is written is never a bible as many things emerge daily.
    Taking also referance from portraits and paintings one has also to deal with artistic licensce of the period, normally when a 16c artist paint a soldier he would base soldiers on a contemparary one as that what he sees daily, nonastando depicting a roman for example. These were not historians or reenactors, so evreything has to be scrutinised to be at least 70% near to the original ... u kif kien jghid Noel, int kont hemm?

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:27 pm

    Ivan if I may ask Laughing did you put a visible moustache on your 75mm Romeo Ifrir pale ?

    I tried to search for him in this section but to no avail what a house & a cave Embarassed

    I can't remember that you did, however I might be wrong Evil or Very Mad

    Joking apart, after my Ray de Puy which is affectionately known as il-Pirjol, this one would go down well amongst the "Saintly figures" Laughing

    Still, who knows how he'll turn or rather into what he'll turn during the paint splashing pale

    I'm seriously contemplating if I shall start from him or from Manfred or from the Consul of Rome as "something new" for Catania Shocked

    I'm tinkering with the idea of painting him as a double paint venture with the Black Hospitaller that I'll purchase from Catania jekk Alla jrid Cool

    Ergajt xi naqa stressjat nahseb hux Sad

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  alexbb on Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:53 pm

    ray stop blaterimg and start painting
    remember a few days before euro .............all that stress a nd hassle.
    finish this one and then start something else


    IM GOOD AT DISHING OUT ADVICE if only i could take some for myself

    lol!

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:19 pm

    alex wrote:ray stop blaterimg and start painting
    remember a few days before euro .............all that stress a nd hassle.
    finish this one and then start something else


    IM GOOD AT DISHING OUT ADVICE if only i could take some for myself

    lol!

    lol! ALL THE WAY lol!

    lol! Alex, I was at work, killing the last hour from my netbook's battery and my last hour as well lol!

    But it would be cool if I had to paint them together what do you think? As I said I'm spoilt for choice actually Cool Twisted Evil

    Just ran upstairs while my Saintly Hospitaller dries from the PRIMER cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  alexbb on Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:26 pm

    Ray wrote:
    alex wrote:ray stop blaterimg and start painting
    remember a few days before euro .............all that stress a nd hassle.
    finish this one and then start something else


    IM GOOD AT DISHING OUT ADVICE if only i could take some for myself

    lol!

    lol! ALL THE WAY lol!

    lol! Alex, I was at work, killing the last hour from my netbook's battery and my last hour as well lol!

    But it would be cool if I had to paint them together what do you think? As I said I'm spoilt for choice actually Cool Twisted Evil

    Just ran upstairs while my Saintly Hospitaller dries from the PRIMER cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

    ray remember we modellers are fickle,change our minds as much as women do so i suggest you paint it NOW cos theres a chance that by the time we come back from catania you might find something new to tickle you immagination.
    and now that you have IMPLANTED a certain ammount of interest by fellow modellers it would not be fair on them and ME

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:46 pm

    Primer DONE cheers
















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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  iCocker on Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:32 pm

    Ooops not a moustache but a goatee ...


    Ray
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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:47 pm

    U mela hekk YOU POSTED A PIC YESSS I INSTIGATED YOU I MANAGED IT!!!! Now open up an appropriate thread and post some pics there come on Twisted Evil

    Ivan looking at the figure again, I stress the point that he's your BEST to date, with the weathering effect you managed on both the Cappa and the sheild just look superb, especially that realistic cacked and cracked leather Twisted Evil

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  iCocker on Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:02 pm

    Infect you get me wondering as I thought I had posted this little guy here somewhere but could not find him ... thanks for the compliments, heq I have a bunch of great local painters to learn from hux ... I will open a tread ASAP and would tell why I am so in love with this figure ... but first we need to see some paint on 'the Saint' Smile

    I guess you are tempted to use your badger on hux!

    Ivan

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  alexbb on Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:58 pm

    Ray wrote:U mela hekk YOU POSTED A PIC YESSS I INSTIGATED YOU I MANAGED IT!!!! Now open up an appropriate thread and post some pics there come on Twisted Evil

    Ivan looking at the figure again, I stress the point that he's your BEST to date, with the weathering effect you managed on both the Cappa and the sheild just look superb, especially that realistic cacked and cracked leather Twisted Evil


    have to agree with ray
    its the first time ive seen this masterpeice up close and the weathering effects are stunning as is the rest of the figure.

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Noel Petroni on Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:36 pm

    Ray, your figure is already starting to look good with just the primer.

    You have to start painting this as I'm looking forward to this one!

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Samwel18 on Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:55 pm

    Where is the paint dudee??? bounce bounce bounce bounce

    Sam =]

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  alexbb on Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:37 pm

    Samwel18 wrote:Where is the paint dudee??? bounce bounce bounce bounce

    Sam =]

    well i guess its in the same place that yours is lol! lol! lol! lol!

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Samwel18 on Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:10 pm

    i am busy with other things mate Wink painting will commence on january =)

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  alexbb on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:47 pm

    too quite all of a sudden. i dont like this. hope its not being shelved

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:32 am

    alex wrote:too quite all of a sudden. i dont like this. hope its not being shelved


    No not at all Alex Evil or Very Mad

    Was just a bit busy elsewhere Sad

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Samwel18 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:03 pm

    WE WANT TO SEE THE PAINT MATEEEEE Smile))

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:39 pm

    Samwel18 wrote:WE WANT TO SEE THE PAINT MATEEEEE Smile))

    Sorry guys but something unexpected cropped up these last few days which is taking up most of my time I love you

    This figure won't be ready for Catania Sad

    In the rundown for Catania I'll be making a Crib instead I love you

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  William on Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:48 pm

    Anyone counting the days, Question Question

    Il-hospitaller nahseb li telghulu l-ghanqbud u daruh id-dud Smile Smile Smile Smile

    Who's gonne join me in the crusade against my uncle's abbandoning Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:41 am

    William wrote:Anyone counting the days, Question Question

    Il-hospitaller nahseb li telghulu l-ghanqbud u daruh id-dud Smile Smile Smile Smile

    Who's gonne join me in the crusade against my uncle's abbandoning Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    I think this would be the easiest crusade Will Laughing

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    Re: Romeo's 90mm Knight Hospitaller c1300

    Post  Ray on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:01 pm

    Just to announce that this dude WILL BE SHELVED for the time being Laughing

    He's being saved for a later double build with his BLACK helmeted BROTHER Twisted Evil

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